<?xml version="1.0" encoding="UTF-8"?><rss version="2.0"
	xmlns:content="http://purl.org/rss/1.0/modules/content/"
	xmlns:dc="http://purl.org/dc/elements/1.1/"
	xmlns:atom="http://www.w3.org/2005/Atom"
	xmlns:sy="http://purl.org/rss/1.0/modules/syndication/"
		>
<channel>
	<title>Comments on: Congruent numbers</title>
	<atom:link href="http://bit-player.org/2009/congruent-numbers/feed" rel="self" type="application/rss+xml" />
	<link>http://bit-player.org/2009/congruent-numbers</link>
	<description>An amateur&#039;s outlook on computation and mathematics</description>
	<lastBuildDate>Mon, 20 May 2013 03:44:14 +0000</lastBuildDate>
	<sy:updatePeriod>hourly</sy:updatePeriod>
	<sy:updateFrequency>1</sy:updateFrequency>
	<generator>http://wordpress.org/?v=3.4.2</generator>
	<item>
		<title>By: brian</title>
		<link>http://bit-player.org/2009/congruent-numbers/comment-page-1#comment-2371</link>
		<dc:creator>brian</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 06 Dec 2009 02:47:48 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://bit-player.org/?p=467#comment-2371</guid>
		<description>@Teresa James: Golly, I&#039;d like to help, but I&#039;m not sure I have an answer. As I said at some point in the piece, a lot of mathematics of this sort isn&#039;t really of much use even to mathematicians, much less to us English-major types. In this particular case, I think the mathematics has genuine applications to serious research, but that still leaves most of the world out in the cold.

What does it really mean to &quot;use&quot; an idea--any idea? 

I worry that I&#039;ve totally missed the point of your question. If so, please do let me know.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>@Teresa James: Golly, I&#8217;d like to help, but I&#8217;m not sure I have an answer. As I said at some point in the piece, a lot of mathematics of this sort isn&#8217;t really of much use even to mathematicians, much less to us English-major types. In this particular case, I think the mathematics has genuine applications to serious research, but that still leaves most of the world out in the cold.</p>
<p>What does it really mean to &#8220;use&#8221; an idea&#8211;any idea? </p>
<p>I worry that I&#8217;ve totally missed the point of your question. If so, please do let me know.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Teresa James</title>
		<link>http://bit-player.org/2009/congruent-numbers/comment-page-1#comment-2354</link>
		<dc:creator>Teresa James</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 04 Dec 2009 14:00:58 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://bit-player.org/?p=467#comment-2354</guid>
		<description>Having been a literature major &quot;in the day,&quot;  can you help me understand how one can use the information that 8 is NOT a congruent number?  I&#039;m really serious--and totally ignorant when it comes to mathmatics.  I read about the research in NYU&#039;s pub on recent research in congruent numbers and that&#039;s how I got interested.

Thanks for any insight!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Having been a literature major &#8220;in the day,&#8221;  can you help me understand how one can use the information that 8 is NOT a congruent number?  I&#8217;m really serious&#8211;and totally ignorant when it comes to mathmatics.  I read about the research in NYU&#8217;s pub on recent research in congruent numbers and that&#8217;s how I got interested.</p>
<p>Thanks for any insight!</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Carnival of Mathematics #59 &#171; The Number Warrior</title>
		<link>http://bit-player.org/2009/congruent-numbers/comment-page-1#comment-2269</link>
		<dc:creator>Carnival of Mathematics #59 &#171; The Number Warrior</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 06 Nov 2009 07:07:32 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://bit-player.org/?p=467#comment-2269</guid>
		<description>[...] The American Institute of Mathematics recently announced all the congruent numbers up to 1 trillion have been enumerated. But what are congruent numbers? Brian at bit-player gives them a thorough treatment. [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] The American Institute of Mathematics recently announced all the congruent numbers up to 1 trillion have been enumerated. But what are congruent numbers? Brian at bit-player gives them a thorough treatment. [...]</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Steve Winburn</title>
		<link>http://bit-player.org/2009/congruent-numbers/comment-page-1#comment-2253</link>
		<dc:creator>Steve Winburn</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 17 Oct 2009 19:35:19 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://bit-player.org/?p=467#comment-2253</guid>
		<description>Barry,

I am working on writing a paper on the congruent number problem for a modular forms class.  The goal is not that extravagant, I need to exhibit 5 is congruent using the Shimura lift, Tunnel&#039;s Theaorem, Eichler Shimura, and Waldspurger.  However, I am having a bit of trouble with the construction.  Is there a nuts and bolts reference to the lift with examples available anywhere.  Thank you if you can help me.  Please email me if you can because I happened upon this forum only and may not find it again. Thank you so much.

Steve Winburn
secuervo@aol.com
winburn@math.uga.edu</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Barry,</p>
<p>I am working on writing a paper on the congruent number problem for a modular forms class.  The goal is not that extravagant, I need to exhibit 5 is congruent using the Shimura lift, Tunnel&#8217;s Theaorem, Eichler Shimura, and Waldspurger.  However, I am having a bit of trouble with the construction.  Is there a nuts and bolts reference to the lift with examples available anywhere.  Thank you if you can help me.  Please email me if you can because I happened upon this forum only and may not find it again. Thank you so much.</p>
<p>Steve Winburn<br />
<a href="mailto:secuervo@aol.com">secuervo@aol.com</a><br />
<a href="mailto:winburn@math.uga.edu">winburn@math.uga.edu</a></p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Barry Cipra</title>
		<link>http://bit-player.org/2009/congruent-numbers/comment-page-1#comment-2246</link>
		<dc:creator>Barry Cipra</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 12 Oct 2009 21:51:30 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://bit-player.org/?p=467#comment-2246</guid>
		<description>On further reflection, it occurs to me that a good way to clarify the nature of the recent computations might be to introduce a bit of terminology.  Let&#039;s call a positive integer N, with square-free part denoted n (i.e., n is square-free and N=nk^2 for some integer k), a &quot;Tunnell number&quot; if either

n is even and the equation n = 8x^2 + 2y^2 + 16z^2 has twice as many integer solutions as the equation n = 8x^2 + 2y^2 + 64z^2; or

n is odd and the equation n = 2x^2 + y^2 + 8z^2 has twice as many integer solutions as the equation n = 2x^2 + y^2 + 32z^2.

This is, on the face of it, a seemingly arbitrary, unmotivated definition.  One might equally arbitrarily define, say a &quot;Hayes number&quot; to be an N for which the equation n = x^2 + y^2 has twice as many integer solutions as the equation n = xy.  But the motivation for Tunnell numbers is provided by Tunnell&#039;s great theorem, which can be stated in two parts, as follows:

1.  Every congruent number is a Tunnell number; and
2. If the BSD conjecture is true, then every Tunnell number is a congruent number.

The current state of affairs can be summarized thusly:

1.  Every number (square-free or not) in the residue classes 5, 6, and 7 mod 8 is a Tunnell number; and
2. Up to a trillion, the residue classes 1, 2, and 3 mod 8 contain a total of 3,148,379,694 square-free Tunnell numbers.

If and when the BSD conjecture becomes a theorem, the distinction between Tunnell numbers and congruent numbers will evaporate.  Until then, there will be additional results of the form &quot;all Tunnell numbers up to x are congruent numbers&quot; and &quot;all Tunnell numbers that [blah blah blah] are congruent numbers.&quot;  A result of the first form can be obtained in a seemingly straightforward way by finding a right rational triangle of area N for each Tunnell number N up to whatever x you have the resources to compute --- except that absent the BSD conjecture, there&#039;s no algorithm that&#039;s guaranteed to terminate (and even if you assume a guarantee of termination, some of the rational numbers can have huge numerators and denominators).  I&#039;m not sure what the current largest known x is, but I think it&#039;s only in the thousands.

It&#039;s worth noting that even if the BSD conjecture turns out to be false, the first part of Tunnell&#039;s theorem is still an amazingly powerful result.  It provides a very easy way to show that certains numbers cannot be the area of any right rational triangle.  Prior to Tunnell&#039;s breakthrough, this was, if anything, the harder thing to prove, since it&#039;s often easier to prove things do exist (e.g., by finding a right rational triangle of given area) than to prove they don&#039;t (e.g., there&#039;s no n-th power of any positive integer that&#039;s the sum of two other n-th powers of positive integers).

I hope this helps.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>On further reflection, it occurs to me that a good way to clarify the nature of the recent computations might be to introduce a bit of terminology.  Let&#8217;s call a positive integer N, with square-free part denoted n (i.e., n is square-free and N=nk^2 for some integer k), a &#8220;Tunnell number&#8221; if either</p>
<p>n is even and the equation n = 8x^2 + 2y^2 + 16z^2 has twice as many integer solutions as the equation n = 8x^2 + 2y^2 + 64z^2; or</p>
<p>n is odd and the equation n = 2x^2 + y^2 + 8z^2 has twice as many integer solutions as the equation n = 2x^2 + y^2 + 32z^2.</p>
<p>This is, on the face of it, a seemingly arbitrary, unmotivated definition.  One might equally arbitrarily define, say a &#8220;Hayes number&#8221; to be an N for which the equation n = x^2 + y^2 has twice as many integer solutions as the equation n = xy.  But the motivation for Tunnell numbers is provided by Tunnell&#8217;s great theorem, which can be stated in two parts, as follows:</p>
<p>1.  Every congruent number is a Tunnell number; and<br />
2. If the BSD conjecture is true, then every Tunnell number is a congruent number.</p>
<p>The current state of affairs can be summarized thusly:</p>
<p>1.  Every number (square-free or not) in the residue classes 5, 6, and 7 mod 8 is a Tunnell number; and<br />
2. Up to a trillion, the residue classes 1, 2, and 3 mod 8 contain a total of 3,148,379,694 square-free Tunnell numbers.</p>
<p>If and when the BSD conjecture becomes a theorem, the distinction between Tunnell numbers and congruent numbers will evaporate.  Until then, there will be additional results of the form &#8220;all Tunnell numbers up to x are congruent numbers&#8221; and &#8220;all Tunnell numbers that [blah blah blah] are congruent numbers.&#8221;  A result of the first form can be obtained in a seemingly straightforward way by finding a right rational triangle of area N for each Tunnell number N up to whatever x you have the resources to compute &#8212; except that absent the BSD conjecture, there&#8217;s no algorithm that&#8217;s guaranteed to terminate (and even if you assume a guarantee of termination, some of the rational numbers can have huge numerators and denominators).  I&#8217;m not sure what the current largest known x is, but I think it&#8217;s only in the thousands.</p>
<p>It&#8217;s worth noting that even if the BSD conjecture turns out to be false, the first part of Tunnell&#8217;s theorem is still an amazingly powerful result.  It provides a very easy way to show that certains numbers cannot be the area of any right rational triangle.  Prior to Tunnell&#8217;s breakthrough, this was, if anything, the harder thing to prove, since it&#8217;s often easier to prove things do exist (e.g., by finding a right rational triangle of given area) than to prove they don&#8217;t (e.g., there&#8217;s no n-th power of any positive integer that&#8217;s the sum of two other n-th powers of positive integers).</p>
<p>I hope this helps.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Krish</title>
		<link>http://bit-player.org/2009/congruent-numbers/comment-page-1#comment-2243</link>
		<dc:creator>Krish</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 08 Oct 2009 21:36:44 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://bit-player.org/?p=467#comment-2243</guid>
		<description>OK. I see. And I also see I was confusing my logic there in my previous &quot;proof&quot;. :-(

Good article.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>OK. I see. And I also see I was confusing my logic there in my previous &#8220;proof&#8221;. :-(</p>
<p>Good article.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: brian</title>
		<link>http://bit-player.org/2009/congruent-numbers/comment-page-1#comment-2242</link>
		<dc:creator>brian</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 08 Oct 2009 21:20:53 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://bit-player.org/?p=467#comment-2242</guid>
		<description>@Krish: Yes, but the sentence you quote is not discussing &lt;em&gt;primitive&lt;/em&gt; triples, but rather all Pythagorean triples. The idea of primitive triples isn&#039;t introduced until a couple of paragraphs later.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>@Krish: Yes, but the sentence you quote is not discussing <em>primitive</em> triples, but rather all Pythagorean triples. The idea of primitive triples isn&#8217;t introduced until a couple of paragraphs later.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Krish</title>
		<link>http://bit-player.org/2009/congruent-numbers/comment-page-1#comment-2241</link>
		<dc:creator>Krish</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 08 Oct 2009 21:11:03 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://bit-player.org/?p=467#comment-2241</guid>
		<description>&gt; in any Pythagorean triple either a or b (or both) must be an even number

Actually, the &quot;both&quot; is incorrect. 

The triple generated by Euclid&#039;s formula is primitive if and only if m and n are coprime and exactly one of them is even. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pythagorean_triple)

You can derive this by substituting (2n) &amp; (2p) for a &amp; b in a^2 + b^2 = c^2. You would get c^2 is even always which is not accurate.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&gt; in any Pythagorean triple either a or b (or both) must be an even number</p>
<p>Actually, the &#8220;both&#8221; is incorrect. </p>
<p>The triple generated by Euclid&#8217;s formula is primitive if and only if m and n are coprime and exactly one of them is even. (<a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pythagorean_triple" rel="nofollow">http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pythagorean_triple</a>)</p>
<p>You can derive this by substituting (2n) &amp; (2p) for a &amp; b in a^2 + b^2 = c^2. You would get c^2 is even always which is not accurate.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: brian</title>
		<link>http://bit-player.org/2009/congruent-numbers/comment-page-1#comment-2240</link>
		<dc:creator>brian</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 08 Oct 2009 14:03:35 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://bit-player.org/?p=467#comment-2240</guid>
		<description>@Barry: Thanks much for the clarification.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>@Barry: Thanks much for the clarification.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Barry Cipra</title>
		<link>http://bit-player.org/2009/congruent-numbers/comment-page-1#comment-2239</link>
		<dc:creator>Barry Cipra</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 08 Oct 2009 13:32:41 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://bit-player.org/?p=467#comment-2239</guid>
		<description>It is somewhat misleading to say that &quot;Up to 10&lt;sup&gt;12&lt;/sup&gt;, the computation identified 3,148,379,694 square-free congruent numbers.&quot;  For one, as you noted, the numbers that are identified are only conjecturally congruent, assuming the BSD conjecture -- that is, they satisfy the &quot;Tunnell criterion,&quot; which is to say they satisfy certain conditions on the numbers of solutions to those funky quadratic equations.  This is why in my ScienceNOW article I wound up calling them &quot;candidate&quot; congruent numbers.

But also, it implies that the given number represents the count of *all* square-free congruent numbers up to a trillion.  As I understand it (and I hope someone will jump in and correct me if I&#039;m wrong), it only counts the square-free (candidate) congruent numbers up to a trillion that are congruent, modulo 8, to 1, 2, or 3.

This is because these are the only cases for which an actual computation is required to check if N satisfies the Tunnell criterion.  The square-free numbers congruent to 5, 6, and 7 mod 8 automatically satisfy the criterion for the simple reason that the ternary quadratic equations N = 2x^2 + y^2 + 32z^2 and N = 2x^2 + y^2 + 8z^2 (for N odd) and N = 8x^2 + 2y^2 + 64z^2 and N = 8x^2 + 2y^2 + 16z^2 (for N even) have no integer solutions whatsoever when N=5, 6, or 7 mod 8, for bordline trivial reasons based on the observation that, mod 8, the only odd square is 1 and the only even squares are 0 and 4.  When you mod out by 8, the quadratic equations reduce to N = 2x^2 + y^2 for odd N and N = 2y^2 for even N, and it&#039;s easy to see that neither of these has any solutions mod 8 when N=5, 6, or 7 mod 8.  (For example, 2y^2 can equal 0 or 2 mod 8, but never 6.)  This, by the way, helps account for the curiosity you observed in your graphic.

There are 125 billion numbers in each residue class mod 8 (up to a trillion), and about 90% of them are square-free in the classes congruent to 1, 2, 3, 5, 6, and 7.  (It&#039;s reasonably straightforward to count the exact number of square-free numbers in each residue class, but I don&#039;t trust myself to do the calculations correctly.  There are, of course, *no* square-free numbers in the classes congruent to 0 or 4 mod 8.)  Thus there are well over 300 billion square-free (candidate) congruent numbers altogether in the residue classes 5, 6, and 7 mod 8, whereas the recent computation showed that the residue classes 1, 2, and 3 contain only a little over 3 billion such numbers.

On the one hand, it would be nice to know the complete count of (candidate) congruent numbers, square-free or not, up to various numbers x -- a kind of analog to the prime number function pi(x).  On the other hand, what the recent computation was really aimed at, as I understand it, is exploring implications of the BSD conjecture for elliptic curves (e.g., the asymptotic formula mentioned by Rubinstein), and for those purposes only the square-free numbers in the residue classes 1, 2, and 3 are of interest.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>It is somewhat misleading to say that &#8220;Up to 10<sup>12</sup>, the computation identified 3,148,379,694 square-free congruent numbers.&#8221;  For one, as you noted, the numbers that are identified are only conjecturally congruent, assuming the BSD conjecture &#8212; that is, they satisfy the &#8220;Tunnell criterion,&#8221; which is to say they satisfy certain conditions on the numbers of solutions to those funky quadratic equations.  This is why in my ScienceNOW article I wound up calling them &#8220;candidate&#8221; congruent numbers.</p>
<p>But also, it implies that the given number represents the count of *all* square-free congruent numbers up to a trillion.  As I understand it (and I hope someone will jump in and correct me if I&#8217;m wrong), it only counts the square-free (candidate) congruent numbers up to a trillion that are congruent, modulo 8, to 1, 2, or 3.</p>
<p>This is because these are the only cases for which an actual computation is required to check if N satisfies the Tunnell criterion.  The square-free numbers congruent to 5, 6, and 7 mod 8 automatically satisfy the criterion for the simple reason that the ternary quadratic equations N = 2x^2 + y^2 + 32z^2 and N = 2x^2 + y^2 + 8z^2 (for N odd) and N = 8x^2 + 2y^2 + 64z^2 and N = 8x^2 + 2y^2 + 16z^2 (for N even) have no integer solutions whatsoever when N=5, 6, or 7 mod 8, for bordline trivial reasons based on the observation that, mod 8, the only odd square is 1 and the only even squares are 0 and 4.  When you mod out by 8, the quadratic equations reduce to N = 2x^2 + y^2 for odd N and N = 2y^2 for even N, and it&#8217;s easy to see that neither of these has any solutions mod 8 when N=5, 6, or 7 mod 8.  (For example, 2y^2 can equal 0 or 2 mod 8, but never 6.)  This, by the way, helps account for the curiosity you observed in your graphic.</p>
<p>There are 125 billion numbers in each residue class mod 8 (up to a trillion), and about 90% of them are square-free in the classes congruent to 1, 2, 3, 5, 6, and 7.  (It&#8217;s reasonably straightforward to count the exact number of square-free numbers in each residue class, but I don&#8217;t trust myself to do the calculations correctly.  There are, of course, *no* square-free numbers in the classes congruent to 0 or 4 mod 8.)  Thus there are well over 300 billion square-free (candidate) congruent numbers altogether in the residue classes 5, 6, and 7 mod 8, whereas the recent computation showed that the residue classes 1, 2, and 3 contain only a little over 3 billion such numbers.</p>
<p>On the one hand, it would be nice to know the complete count of (candidate) congruent numbers, square-free or not, up to various numbers x &#8212; a kind of analog to the prime number function pi(x).  On the other hand, what the recent computation was really aimed at, as I understand it, is exploring implications of the BSD conjecture for elliptic curves (e.g., the asymptotic formula mentioned by Rubinstein), and for those purposes only the square-free numbers in the residue classes 1, 2, and 3 are of interest.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: brian</title>
		<link>http://bit-player.org/2009/congruent-numbers/comment-page-1#comment-2238</link>
		<dc:creator>brian</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 08 Oct 2009 12:53:13 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://bit-player.org/?p=467#comment-2238</guid>
		<description>@Dave P: Yes, they did indeed use Chinese remaindering. The basic idea, if I understand correctly, is that you do all the computations modulo several primes and then use the Chinese remainder theorem to recover the full result. In this case &quot;several primes&quot; meant about 500 of them. And then they needed some further trickery to make sure the CRT reconstruction didn&#039;t in fact take longer than simply doing the full multiplication without the modular reduction.

See http://www.warwick.ac.uk/~masfaw/congruent.pdf for the details.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>@Dave P: Yes, they did indeed use Chinese remaindering. The basic idea, if I understand correctly, is that you do all the computations modulo several primes and then use the Chinese remainder theorem to recover the full result. In this case &#8220;several primes&#8221; meant about 500 of them. And then they needed some further trickery to make sure the CRT reconstruction didn&#8217;t in fact take longer than simply doing the full multiplication without the modular reduction.</p>
<p>See <a href="http://www.warwick.ac.uk/~masfaw/congruent.pdf" rel="nofollow">http://www.warwick.ac.uk/~masfaw/congruent.pdf</a> for the details.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Dave P</title>
		<link>http://bit-player.org/2009/congruent-numbers/comment-page-1#comment-2237</link>
		<dc:creator>Dave P</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 07 Oct 2009 16:00:19 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://bit-player.org/?p=467#comment-2237</guid>
		<description>I recall that in computing power series like this it can be more efficient to use the Chinese Remainder Theorem, provided that some sort of bound is known on the size of the coefficients, but I have not got any clue whether that&#039;s true here.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I recall that in computing power series like this it can be more efficient to use the Chinese Remainder Theorem, provided that some sort of bound is known on the size of the coefficients, but I have not got any clue whether that&#8217;s true here.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Jeremy</title>
		<link>http://bit-player.org/2009/congruent-numbers/comment-page-1#comment-2236</link>
		<dc:creator>Jeremy</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 07 Oct 2009 02:55:15 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://bit-player.org/?p=467#comment-2236</guid>
		<description>Thanks, well researched and interesting article. I learned something new</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Thanks, well researched and interesting article. I learned something new</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
</channel>
</rss>
